Vaissnavi Shukl
Earlier this summer, I found my way into a town called Rajpipla. It’s about three hours from my home. I was visiting my friend Ranajay, who is a Master of Public Policy student at Georgetown, and whom I actually met because two of our friends were getting married to each other. We were supposed to travel to Pakistan for their wedding, but we did not make it, because of COVID. However, we pondered over architecture, history and heritage, everything that an architect would love but a public policy student. Anyway, Ranajay and I spent the weekend in Rajpipla and promised to show me some really good buildings, not quite telling me at first that he belonged to the royal family of Rajpipla, and that his ancestors had commissioned the buildings that we were going to see. So we saw the buildings and spoke extensively about patronage, culture, gentrification, urban regeneration, and there was no way I was not recording it. So here’s the first in person interview of Architecture Off-Centre with Ranajay Chand.

My name is Vaissnavi Shukl and this is Architecture Off- Centre, a podcast where we highlight unconventional design practices and research projects that reflect the emerging discourses within the design discipline and beyond. Architecture of Center features conversations with exceptionally creative individuals who have extrapolated the traditional fields of Art, Architecture, Planning, landscape, and urban design.

Well, can you describe the space and the place we’re sitting in right now?

Ranajay Chand
Oh great. We’re sitting in new wing of Vijay Palace, and this wing was built in 1920 and Vijay Palace was my… is my family’s ancestral home was the seat of the Maharaja of Rajpipla until the early 1940s, when Vadia Palace, but was essentially the place where Rajpipla was governed for most of its golden years, from 1915 to 1948,

Vaissnavi Shukl
You came back with quite an energy and you have some big plans for the place. So, what has been the story of the palace itself in terms of its life and how are you thinking about it?

Ranajay Chand
So as I said it was the seat of the Maharajas of Rajpipla until the early 1940s. After independence, at the time when my great great grandfather, who… for whom it was built, signed the instrument of the session. After he died, it passed on to my great grandfather who used it as his primary residence again. And it functioned as a… as a residence until the early 1970s By this time, my great grandfather passed away and my grandfather was the Maharaja. In 1971, our Indian listeners will be aware, Indira Gandhi during the Emergency revoked the titles privileges including pretty buses, obviously, there had to be some form of running income to support… support the property because obviously being a palace, it has its own maintenance needs and well pretences to keep up. So, it was done into a hotel. And eventually, it sort of became a popular ish location for films to be shot. And that’s what it was until I came back in 2017 and took over the management of the palace myself.

Vaissnavi Shukl
So when we talk about palaces in India, and you think about the contemporary function, you won’t realise that mostly they’re all turn into hotels, and museums, now that you’re kind of overseeing the whole project and the place what’s your take on other maybe alternative uses of a place like this, especially within like its current context and for those who don’t know, Rajpipla is located in quite close proximity to the Statue of Unity which is now the world’s largest statue and it’s been attracting a lot of attention so there’s two ways to think about it one, this can really shoot up and this can go crazy and this can become a tourist hotspot, but the other day you were giving this example of how there’s a front office in the back office and if the Statue of Unity is what the front office is their chances of this being the back office. So not just the palace but if you think about the town and its importance or its relevance today. What do you think about it?

Ranajay Chand
So do you mean, adaptive reuse of all buildings, including palaces or the towns themselves.

Vaissnavi Shukl
Well let’s start with the building itself.

Ranajay Chand
So, luckily for me I think I had a very clear idea what I wanted to do right from… from the get go, and then even more luckily for me I guess. Prime Minister Modi decided to build the Statue of Unity, and obviously, it gives us this opportunity to piggyback off Tractatus hence my idea to turn one wing of the palace into Museum, and I guess I’m more comfortable sort of selling culture more than like being in the hospitality industry which I don’t particularly understand. So I’d say I was lucky and knowing what I wanted to do as well other palaces, I can’t say no after many, I think, some of my other cousins who are more ingrained in these more active in this area would be able to give a better answer as to what they do in India but obviously in Rajasthan, it’s it’s hotels that are sort of go to option. Obviously some forts and palaces become museums but obviously the family needs to have that sort of like treasure trove of cultural artefacts to be able to pull that off, they can usually only be one main museum and he said he said that my idea to turn the palace. Wandering of the palace in the museum also was based on the fact that Rajpipla in its current form or at least at the time had come back, which is obviously before the statue open, Was that Rajpipla obviously had accommodation but no attractions per se so this was that was the attraction, they could have all the other owners have like historic homes in the city turn theirs into accommodation, sort of work in conjunction with each other and harmony. But yeah, when thinking about the adaptive reuse of a building, I think it’s very important to consider what the building was used for originally and obviously can’t tinker too much as you as an architect to agree with. It can’t take too much of its original design and purpose because it is designed keeping that in mind. So, to whatever extent one can think, should sort of try to limit maybe the building to its original use or something along those lines. But, yeah, obviously we’ve seen something interesting, discussing the forces in France, we were the other day we’ve seen monasteries turn into hotels. Now, I guess, I guess it also depends on the context of its setting. The current events that are taking place. The development at the time in the town and the how. The building’s adaptive reuse can play a role in shaping that so again depends on one’s appetite for risk as well.

Vaissnavi Shukl
Can I press you on something you mentioned earlier? You said something about selling a product and then you’re talking about selling a certain kind of culture. I want to ask you what culture means for you today, especially a culture that well physically reminds you of a very specific past, but a boss that exists only physically and maybe not in terms of its Ramana say traditions but in its functioning in its habits in its food its clothing in its art, its people, its stuff, it’s whatever but what is this culture that you’re talking about.

Ranajay Chand
I just meant generally to sell a product that is cultural in nature for example

Vaissnavi Shukl
what is cultural in nature. Today, I mean you could you could break down why, while we’re doing this interview you and I are both kind of completely dressed in Nike T-shirts so why is it in, you know, in 100 year old palace so I know I often find this very thought provoking and also confusing because when we’re trying to redefine something or when we’re trying to think about something in today’s time with all the technology and all the social media and our artefacts of the past, including buildings only meant for for the lack of a better word, just Instagram posts I mean what is culture is it obvious just like my meeting in the past because we can’t have it today but I mean, I don’t know.

Ranajay Chand
I think it’s an interesting juxtaposition sitting in Nike obviously in this room but privileged juxtaposition, and call it that. Drawing on a conversation from earlier and seeing how obviously architecture products in general have like become more industrial post the Second World War. I think our current like if you’re if you’re asking about the artefacts that these buildings are I think they sort of in the Indian context from in my personal opinion they’re they’re like symbols of what I’d call the ‘indigenous high culture’ and like, sort of, a symbol of a time when there was beauty and conception and execution, well thought out spaces that were obviously very purpose built for their, for the area they use and everything was competitive like modern architecture that’s sort of exactly very similar to look at a place and using modern technology that’s doesn’t require to be like, built in a different way for the environment, so I guess they serve as like, not just reminders but like the serve as, serve as symbols of that, if you look at most luxury products today they tend to originate from countries or areas that have very also standard very strict preservation as we look at, Italy, France and England obviously they’ve got their culture is preserved through their built environments so I guess if you’re talking with the buildings as artefacts. Indian culture obviously is evolving, it’s rather global in its outlook in a way but then obviously we have other forms of modern. In Indian culture as well that’s it’s I don’t know, it’s, it’s, you can obviously there is nothing like Indian culture because of the sub sub national like cultures that we have in this country so I mean from for what it means for me personally I like to think of myself, obviously as a value espouse, maybe aspire to as many cultures as we would appreciate different cultures and obviously it’s certainly a set of beliefs, value and values that I have, that are uniquely my own, and then obviously my behaviour, I think as a result of those any artefacts that I may end up creating might be again a result of those three so we’ll break down the cultural framework that I finished writing an essay on last week’s.

Vaissnavi Shukl
Okay, but then when you think about culture and the way a lot of people. I mean even just like if you speak about fashion or lifestyle products, it seems like culture and cultural products are being framed or re framed to cater to an exclusive view, rather than them being inclusive which I assumed back in the day was something that was extremely inclusive and that a lot of I mean of course crafts have been lost over generations but if you’re trying to elevate a certain kind of ‘Culture’, quote unquote, like the capital seek. How do you try to make it inclusive like the other day when we were walking around and we saw these art deco houses in Rajpipla absolutely bizarre because I did not expect to see art deco buildings here I thought they would just probably be, you know ballast like bungalows with like slight colonial influences but also very geometric and almost vernacular, we will ignore the vernacular that is seen and the but still very local to the region but then seeing all these art deco buildings and then seeing them being converted into what’s happening literally all over India just functional spaces that. So, a certain kind of purpose to the users that they belong to, and kind of creating this awareness amongst the general public that this is what preserving for the lack of a better word, and in season one we had Karan, my friend from the GSD, who is absolutely and then preservation because he feels like culture evolves and history was and there’s no need to be physically attached to buildings of the past, different perspective but what do you think about preserving culture or like, no, just like it not being exclusive and somehow

Ranajay Chand
all inclusive automate culture inclusive

Vaissnavi Shukl
or are meeting, making people realise the value that it has in the day and time that we live in where, in places like Ahemadabad or literally anywhere in the world, which has 40 degrees Celsius heat you’re still building class buildings, because that’s the global culture. Globally, broadally, everything looks the same around the world. So, how do you make sort of this part of Indian culture more, I mean let’s just talk about judgement, and the culture you’re thinking about,

Ranajay Chand
I mean obviously the many cultural artefacts someone might have you might have like the clothing of Rajpipla and the architecture of luxury. The food of luxury jewellery of Africa could be anything, but to make the next movie obviously back in the day everything, I suppose, I mean if you look at any sort of luxury product that has a strong cultural influence. More often than not, or there will be handcrafted or made obviously very good materials at least not luxurious and as well as evolved. Obviously, most products nowadays and mass produced, industrial products and what’s handcrafted as a result, select few who can afford them. So to get everyone to buy into the sort of speaking strictly about the sort of thing, these artefacts of cultural, get the masses to bind to them as is almost impossible, but one way to make this sort of stuff, not exclusive, maybe it’s not the correct word but like to have a system that benefits all is to get considering the number of artisans we have and, including for example as we’ve spoken about, but often by tailor, to promote these as viable occupations for people so that they can gain from this collar cultural renaissance or whatever but like there’s this return to like to have the human touch, again, to promote this humanism again in your, in your in the artefacts of your culture, you can. This is one way to make it inclusive is to, yeah, maybe through job creation is obviously to have enough people buy into this is at least in today’s day and age, rather difficult because it’s it’s very difficult to sell the idea of one of these to someone who maybe is learning about it, and to justify the higher price that is to someone who, even if they can arguably afford it against something that has been mass producing industrial and obviously vary in fashion.

Vaissnavi Shukl
*brianne trailer insert*
So knowing that the family background that you have your family history, and then your own personal background as a student of politics and public policy, and also somebody who is now going to be almost a patron of whatever happens at least in your palace, if not in the town. What do you think is the role of patronage when it comes to starting a moment of sight or driving change? I know you’ve been thinking about some large scale changes that you want to be involved in, not as an official office bearer. As a part of an structured government organisation, but still learning some kind of patronage, in, in the town planning in preservation. What do you think is the role of patronage?

Ranajay Chand
Patronage is obviously essential form of art, any great artist that you ever read about obviously one of my great patrons, for lack of a better word of benefactor behind them, enable them to carry on with the work at least back in the day, obviously, a lot of many people attribute the Renaissance to Lorenzo de Medici. He was a great patron, but if you’re talking about the sort of patronage that comes from, I don’t know, elected officials, mostly what we’re talking about here is the urban regeneration of Rajpipla, if that’s what you’re referring to.

Vaissnavi Shukl
Can you talk a little bit about that. Oh, it’s rather simple. It’s rather not simple okay

Ranajay Chand
was rather simple in its outlets a lot more complex to achieve I suppose it’s spot city beautiful movement by preservation, but the making the city more walkable, just creating like a nice civic space that people can enjoy deter them from using their cars or encourage them, or like make it that nice to walk that they don’t really feel like using the cars that have improved street life plant more trees, Use the heat island effect, etc, etc, obviously. Easier said than done. Obviously we push these forth you need you do need the right sort of policy, I mean, to the national governments credit, to a degree, I guess they do have the smart city plan but to what extent it focuses on the important things, again, I’m not a position to commenting as I’m not I don’t know if I’ve read enough about it to be a comment but as a student of policy, obviously, we study a lot of studies abroad where these movements are gathering momentum I think Paris, London and New York. Prime global examples, sort of cutting down on the sort of geysers is actually a preservation movement, and they have improved urban life a lot more I think. Studies show that people are spending less like they’re less that they’re not slaves to the cars anymore and the money and time that they’re saving this anymore on retail they’re… they’re happier in general just being these like more beautiful spaces. Does this tend to improve a lot of metrics that make up that overall makeup, quality of life.

Vaissnavi Shukl
Okay, let’s, let’s, let’s think about it this way. So, given everything that exists right now and that has been planted by the government with the new airport coming up here with a new railway station that’s pretty close by that resembles something very alien to where we’re at. And of course the statue and everything that the statue brings in terms of economy and tourism, whatever it does to the larger region. But what do you think, or what would you like this place, like your own palace, and Rajpipla in general, to be, like, say, 10 years from now, How do you see it, if everything was to like fall into place and you were to have your way and assuming you build all the coalition’s you had to, you have all the right people on track you have everybody on board to do whatever you’ve been thinking about and I know you’ve been talking to a lot of municipal councillors and a lot of tribal leaders and people who work in different industries in the town but ten years from now, what’s your vision? What would you like this place to be?

Ranajay Chand
It’s quite paternalistic in its in its outlook isn’t sort of to either provide a specific like basic quality of life or encourage certain lifestyle changes, I think maybe I have this sort of paternalistic view based of the family history and how I see the down from that sense, or as a student of policy, I’m not quite sure but I think mostly, it involves the people of Rajpipla are sort of being made aware of just what they just what they have in terms of not just the built environment but also the natural environment, both of which I think you experienced, sort of at the centre today. It’s for them to sort of live a sustainable lifestyle but also a holistic one. Be in complete harmony with the environment. I can elaborate on all those points if you’d like. But as as I said the whole if the urban regeneration goes through to sort of reduce that guy users maybe spend their spare time pursuing hobbies instead of just at the moment honestly there’s a knock down made to me outlets for leisure in the city as well I mean, again, the sport rush group was known for its like sporting heritage back in the day the ball and tennis obviously were the major ones. Maybe get into a more sustainable sort of businesses, and most importantly I think just appreciate the environment and what really what disturbing what history has given them. Just do as as my cousin said today seems to be considered so I’m very lucky to be like living in the house that he lives in so happy to have this like population that is. Just living in harmony and have gratitude with respect and obviously having done on all that the statute overseas here for the long run. So I think what’s best both for rich people and, and given a colonies or to benefit from each other, to that extent, the statute obviously brings in a lot of trouble recommendation to to the area, and brings with it a lot of services and stuff that obviously we would never been given had the stature not had the stature not being that like the seaplane The new station. Another swanky new airport. That’s coming up on the helipad and fantastic national highways, I suppose, if either Rajpipla are given a calling to serve as either condiments to each other as well in terms of tourism, because obviously one I don’t know if it’s enough. I think they can both benefit just by being like a… can be a mutually beneficial relationship just existing next to each other. And, maybe, obviously this is a bit optimistic but serve as a, as a sort of model rash people obviously being rather small, and people might say it’s not replicable, but serve as at least a model for other towns to to copy cities to copy, and see how we sort of prepared ourselves for the future by taking one step back or just having a look at our past.

Vaissnavi Shukl
Do you think the economy of the place changes in a few years so currently it seems like it’s predominantly agricultural with a whole lot of bananas, but with all the development that’s happening twenty kilometres from here. Do you think there will be a change in the overall demographic of the place in terms of it becoming more of a service industry, and I don’t know what happens to agriculture because the moment you get people, or, you know bring services around you by default, start thinking about the land and what it does to the overall economy.

Ranajay Chand
I’d assume so. I’d say obviously I can’t make any predictions just now but one would have to wait and see how well the statue continues doing in terms of its in terms of the sheer number of tourists that is attracting, there is obviously the statue itself and supporting economy, that it’s surrounded by like hotels and taxis restaurants etc that people and Rajpipla. I suppose are hoping to find, and I have actually so far found jobs of like business ideas or potential and so we’re obviously largely depend on that show the statues. Now numbers go down the I presume it would not look so lucrative any more like build a hotel or something or start a restaurant or a cafe or anything that says the I presume people will be deterred from jumping prematurely from one business that they have known the entire lifetime to something completely different. The ones have been an agricultural resume and like other businesses obviously locally but those one that will offer maybe cannot start like something new on the side, but can you become like predominantly being in the same businesses that. Having said that, obviously a lot of lands being bought up here, at least, leading up to the Download being converted into…

Vaissnavi Shukl
Guest houses and…

Ranajay Chand
…Commercial use. Yes Yeah, and you do see that, if it’s a good thing or a bad thing, suppose the environment is a good thing but. So obviously there is, There is, it does run the risk of saturation already, but obviously Statue’s already surprised us so far with the sheer numbers that it has managed to pull off the official figures. Correct. So it really depends on, on, on how it’s popularity through. I believe there is a new one in Maharashtra that’s supposed to be even taller. I don’t know if it’s an old anyone obviously read about it recently, but the one of the irrelevancies, if, if that is obviously to take shape. Then, I suppose. I was with loses shame. So, yeah, it really depends. I’m not quite sure and then again, there’s a bit of gentrification if I can use that word obviously it’s not the same as it is in the western context but they’re they’re obviously new people moving in, there’s a lot of migration to the town. The culture in a sense is changing, touching upon a previous topic, seeing as people’s beliefs and values are changing, as everyone is now connected to the internet so obviously that sense, I suppose the demographic is changing. The Old Guard is dying out. COVID obviously had a lot of evil or destruction as obviously like younger people in power with different views so I think it’s an interesting time, it’s an uncertain time, not necessarily in a bad way, but it’s a very interesting time to be here. So, one just has to wait and watch. I suppose.

Vaissnavi Shukl
And if I were to grill you for like, one last question. So you have another year before you graduate from us in Public Policy from Georgetown, which is so exciting, and I’m hoping you’re planning to move back with them so what’s personally next for you and what’s next for the panellists I don’t know if I were to come back. Five to ten years later, what do you hope this will be like if I walk in to see like a bustling museum?

Ranajay Chand
Well I hope I get contacted to actually finish getting out there workers by then. For in their own words for them to reinterpreted the past in the ballasts, for it to sort of invoke…evoke the sort of visceral reaction and hopefully by then. I’m assuming it did already. But even more so, but then sort of have, whatever the larger plan for the place inaction, at least part of it, because obviously it’s a landscape of uncertainty but hopefully things being in motion, because I don’t know, five to ten years is enough for everything to change but at a discounted rush by Renaissance as I like to call it being well underway well and truly underway, and for there’ll be a visible change in the in the city for us to actually be able to dish my car completely and just explore on foot, maybe have more plays of recreation around way more like restaurants and cafes and stuff and that’s what I hope one will be able to see should everything go on to plan.

Vaissnavi Shukl
So whenever in town if you ever happen to visit the Statue of Unity, please. Just drive by, because I feel like today the last few days have been a game changer in terms of the secret treasure that this town holds and I think what if not for our two common friends who are soon getting married, I would have never ended up here so thank you for having me for the last three days and for agreeing to be on an architecture podcast and absolutely nailing it because you don’t look like an architect. Thank you so much

Ranajay Chand
for coming to court, called the signboard at the statue. Thank you.

Vaissnavi Shukl
Special thanks to Ayushi Thakur for the research and design support, and Kahaan Shah for the background score. For guests and topic suggestions, you can get in touch with us through instagram or our website through our website archoffcentre.com, both of which are ‘archoffcentre’. And thank you for listening.