Vaissnavi Shukl
My first in depth introduction to stained glass was in a history course during the third year of my undergraduate architecture program. The seminar focused on Gothic architecture, and we were taught that one of the identifiers of Gothic architecture, along with the flying buttresses, the pointed arches and the cargoes were stained glass windows, but that was pretty much all I knew and thought about the stained glass. It was an element in the Gothic cathedrals. So when we came across Brianne Van Vorst work on the architecture plan, Madam Architect, I was intrigued by her preservation practice highlighting stained glass, not only as a medium and a material, but also as an architectural element that has witnessed tremendous transformation over the years. I really wanted to learn more about the contemporary importance of stained glass in a world of aluminium and fibreglass facades. And Brianne gave us a thorough lay of the land in the stained glass conservation industry.

My name is Vaissnavi Shukl and this is Architecture Off- Centre, a podcast where we highlight unconventional design practices and research projects that reflect the emerging discourses within the design discipline and beyond. Architecture of Center features conversations with exceptionally creative individuals who have extrapolated the traditional fields of Art, Architecture, Planning, landscape, and urban design.

Should we do this?

Brianne Van Vorst
Yes, I’m so ready. All right, let’s do it.

Vaissnavi Shukl
Okay, I hope you have your caffeine and tea, whatever you have in the morning or completely absorbed in your system. Yeah, so we can get started with the world of stained glass conservation. Let’s start with what attracted you to this particular building element. And if you could familiarise all of us to what the current stained glass conservation and restoration industry looks like.

Brianne Van Vorst
Absolutely. So the short answer really is that I’m really attracted to the idea that stained glass is the balance between an art object and a functional aspect of a building envelope. How I ended up working in stained glass is sort of very much intertwined with, you know, my own life experiences and it’s really just the culmination of a series of decisions that I made. And I think, probably everyone feels the same way about their own life choices and how they got to where they are. But my love of art really began at a very young age, I actually used to copy covers of Disney VHS tapes, like over and over again. And my parents, you know, my parents really, that was a seed that they wanted to water. So they were very encouraging for me to participate in art lessons and classes and contests and that type of thing. And it was really a high school art teacher who had incorporated history of art into her applied art classes that made art become a lot more cerebral for me. It became more… It was actually a lesson about Henri Matisse and the paper cut outs he did in his more mature years because his health prevented him from painting. So at that point, art for me became more about the process of the person creating it and less about the finished work. And my next natural step was to go to art school for undergraduate, which I did, and that is when I was first exposed to stained glass as part of the larger curriculum. So it was in an art history lecture at the college level that I really learned about the duality of beauty and functionality in stained glass. And I was just so enamoured with that concept. The process of designing and physically building a window is much different than painting or drawing. And I was really fascinated by the materials and how they could be manipulated to filter light and the exact right way and the experience it gave to the people who viewed it, especially in the Middle Ages. I had an undergraduate art history professor, who I’m now realising I’m very susceptible to teachers and their suggestions. She had suggested that I go to graduate school for conservation. And I mean, to be fair, I graduated college in 2010. And what was I really going to do with an art history degree during a recession? So I did, I mean, conservation made a lot of sense. For me, it plays to my strengths, you know, my love of art and creativity and my kind of neurotic attention to detail. I really like to work with my hands. So I started looking at conservation programmes and eventually I came across the University of York, which is in England and the only English speaking institution in the world to offer a graduate programme in stained glass conservation. I had not even finished reading the brochure when I decided what I was going to do. That decision was 100% based on instinct, and I think the bold decision making process, unrealistic dreams that only 22 year olds can have. But it incorporated all of the things that I knew that I liked. So I went for it and they accepted me. And then my journey really, and, you know, truly began at that point. The programme is really challenging. It’s made up of classes that teach both theoretical knowledge and practical skill. The amount of care and consideration that Sarah Brown put into designing that programme is just really, really evident. And it includes historical lectures, practical skills, classes, apprenticeships, all of the things. What I particularly enjoyed the most was field excursions, because that gives you so much exposure to actual physical buildings and the stained glass that lives there in the wild. So that was really impactful for me. And I think going back to your original question about, you know, this situation of stained glass conservation right now, in restoration, it is different in the UK than it is here in America. In the UK, it presents itself really as an academic discipline, rather than as a trade. And most if not all, conservators in the UK and in Europe have a graduate degree or some type of formalised training, they tend to rely on something called the CVMA guidelines, which are ethical standards and philosophical underpinnings, which help frame out decision making. So there is sort of a centralised, governor…I wouldn’t say a governing but a centralised standard that people subscribe to… to help them on the day to day basis make decisions for stained glass heritage. They are ethical principles that underlie the treatment of stained glass of all periods. They’re essentially similar to the Department of the Interior Standards for Preservation. If you’re familiar with those?

Vaissnavi Shukl
I am not this is actually the first time hearing about it, because I would just on the face of it, not half gas that there’s, you know, like a professional organisation that looks at stained glass so professionally, that they’ve actually put together guidelines. I mean, that to me is a very advanced profession to… to begin with.

Brianne Van Vorst
Yes, so the CVMA does that on an international level here in America. I mean, the CVA guidelines are available for free online, anybody can use them and use that as their ethical underpinning. But in America, we have the Department of the Interior, which handles, you know, the Secretary of the Interior’s Standards for Preservation, Restoration and Rehabilitation, there’s a couple of documents there. And again, they’re not those documents, those standards are not how-to guide on “how you should use this restoration material in this particular situation”, it’s more of a “we want to focus on repair over replacement, or we should use the gentlest means possible to clean an object”, you know, they’re… they’re wider conceptual standards. So the CVMA guidelines do that, but specifically for stained glass rather than just preservation, you know, completely. So they placed value, the CVMA guidelines place value on stained glasses and artwork. And its inherent value lies within that originality of the existing materials and the craftsmanship, which is really inherently my viewpoint and really my business model, you know, that’s what dictates the decisions that I make. So when I came back to the US, I expected a very similar structure, as I experienced in England, which was obviously so naive. But that’s what I knew. And that’s what I just didn’t expected. So when I came back, I worked for a private studio in New Jersey, which was a wonderful experience, my boss was a great man and I had… I got so much knowledge from working for him. We also worked alongside a lot of other studios jointly for large projects. So I had a lot of exposure to stained glass more as a contracting service, rather than a formalised Conservation Studio, it was kind of a different approach. And it didn’t take me long to recognise that there is not a single governing body like the CVMA here in the United States. And of course, there is no education here. There’s no continuing education, there’s no formal education, that we have trade organisations that try to supply those things, but it is not as structured as it is in the UK. So what that means really, is that clients and by clients, I mean, any steward of stained glass that could be an architect at churches, synagogues, historic buildings, what have you, anybody with historic leaded glass or stained glass, when they reach out to stained glass studios for advice or proposals on how to care for their windows. And you know, of course, what it’ll cost, they get responses back through, say, three different responses that are so different from one another, they’re impossible to compare, because everybody’s operating, every studio is operating with their own value system. So it’s very, it… that’s really the reason why I started my consulting firm. I mean, I missed being a practitioner, I felt I missed it every day. Honestly, I really liked being on a bench. But that is, you know, the price I paid and I’m comfortable with my decision because I ultimately decided the way to really impact change was by writing policy. And that is in the form of specifications In my case, rather than working on a bench. So sometimes I start with a client at the ground level, and they contact me first and say, “Okay, can you look at our windows, tell us what’s wrong with them and how to fix them”. And then I’ll manage that process from the outset. But more likely than not, I end up coming in after they have received three proposals that are very different from each other and I receive a tangled ball of yarn that I sort of wrap and organise for everyone, and we get a plan and move forward from there. Oftentimes, the biggest challenge is explaining the difference between conservation and restoration.

Vaissnavi Shukl
I would just like a little bit at this point. I know a lot of people use those two words very interchangeably. So before we move ahead, can you explain the difference between the two?

Brianne Van Vorst
Sure, yes, I’d be happy to. There.. So they’re two different approaches. And like you just said the words are not interchangeable, restoration is to restore… restore something back to a previous period. In stained glass that tends to mean the period that it was originally fabricated so when it was new. Conservation is to conserve what is existing now with an emphasis on retaining original or existing material rather than trying to fully eliminate the appearance of age. So it’s more akin to preservation if that’s a word people are more comfortable with, rather than restoration, we’re not changing the object, we’re retaining the object, even with all of its marks of age. Conservation is great, though, because certain marks of age, you know, maybe paint loss or, or some extreme aesthetic implications that you can’t get past can be rectified through conservative means. So we can enhance the appearance of a window without having to replace the original materials. And that is what’s so special about conservation. And that’s what I spend a great deal of my time trying to explain to my clients, to practitioners, to anybody who will really listen. Because we can strike a balance between all of these things and improve the aesthetic for the client and for the viewer, but also keep the original materials. And there’s a tonne of technical ways to do that, that might be our next podcast. But yeah, that’s… that’s really my… my biggest challenge in terms of what I’m doing here in the US.

Vaissnavi Shukl
So you… you mentioned something about the lack of education. And we’ll return to that. And you know, what is the best practice and what would be an ideal scenario for people similar to you in a very niche industry to practise and the work environment, but I want to go back and focus on two particular words you used while describing your entry into this world. And you use the word cerebral and you related it to the Middle Ages as a time period that you were fascinated by. And I am curious about the association of stained glass for the very specific time period, as well in architectural history. And regardless of geographically, wherever you’re at wherever you’re located. Some part of your architectural education at some point will focus on the Gothic cathedrals. And when you focus on Gothic cathedrals, you cannot not talk about stained glass. And that’s for a lot of us the first time that you start thinking about it as not only a medium, but also an architectural element that represents a certain specific kind of architecture, a certain time period, certain use of material, structural systems, so on so forth, the whole package. Now the image I have in mind right now is that of Bernini’s dough of the Holy Spirit and St. Peter’s Basilica. And they have an entire lecture on St. Peter’s at the GSD and a mandatory course for architecture students, again called “Building, texts and contexts” and there’s a fair bit of conversation about this particular window. It has a white dove emerging out of what seems like the sun, surrounded by beautiful warm colours, yellows, and oranges. Everything’s layered radially. Apparently, it isn’t even glass, I don’t know. But my point being in my head when I think of stained glass as a medium, and as an architectural element, I think of Gothic and Baroque architecture, usually religious buildings like cathedrals and churches, or more recently in colonial buildings. I mean, I’m currently in India, and we have a fair bit of colonial architecture around us and you do see stained glass, but they’re not really like stained glass as in the ones you would see in churches, they’re literally textured glass, which are entirely stained and put on windows. Sure, there are some churches which have the traditional kind of stained glass, but what’s your take on the contemporary importance of stained glass both as a consultant and as a practitioner? Where does it stand right now?

Brianne Van Vorst
Yes, that’s a great question. So a couple of things. I’m having a few parallel thoughts. But the first is that stained glass has actually not really changed that much since the mediaeval period. There was a 12th century monk actually by the name of theopolis, who wrote a treatise describing a couple of different mediaeval arts. But what he’s…that text is really important because what he said about stained glass in that century is pretty much still what we do today, when we make stained glass, we essentially use the same materials, the same process. Of course, technology has changed and given us more options, but the fundamental building art is still there. And I love your Bernini example. And you’re right, it is not glass, it’s stone. It’s alabaster, I believe. Bernini put his own unique mark on traditional art by using stone instead of glass, right. And that window is so iconic, not only because of that, I mean, it’s just gorgeous. And it’s the space of day and it all works together in such a specific way. But contemporary artists today and 2021 are doing the exact same thing; they’re putting their own mark on a very traditional building art right? They’re pushing the boundaries of the craft by using their own creativity. They’re using all their own styles, which is really important. They’re own colour palettes, techniques. And even now we’re some contemporary artists are fusing glass, which means that they’re essentially piling ground up glass called frit on top of the base glass and melting it together in a kiln. So it fuses together, which is not as traditional as the theopolis. But you know, that’s something we’re seeing today, which produces some really amazing effects.

Vaissnavi Shukl
I confess to having seen and binge watched both the seasons of Blown Away.

Brianne Van Vorst
Oh, right on I hear that. Yeah. So we are seeing new buildings installed in… new buildings and existing buildings. And that is not only religious buildings, you know, stained glass is a public art form. It decorates shared spaces, hospitals, train stations, libraries, public civic buildings, and I hope for you know, I don’t know if our future selves are going to look back to 2021 stained glass, and they’re gonna think,”Oh, that’s so 2021”, the way we kind of think of like, shag, shag carpet is being so a 1970s. But I don’t, I don’t think so I think or I like to look at it more through the lens of the individual artists and the mark that they’ve had on that building much like Bernie’s use of stone at St. Peter’s, whichever artists today is creating their own mark using their special techniques and creativity that only applies to them and only comes from them in a shared space. Because the reality of the situation is people think there’s this concept of ownership of buildings and of heritage, but with a good preservation plan, these buildings are going to far outlive us. And these artworks are going to far outlive us. And they will go on to the next generation. And that’s what I hope… that is my take on contemporary stained glass, I hope to see it as much as possible. I support all of my artistic colleagues, you know, I’m not a glass artist. But I’m always so impressed with their creativity and ingenuity at conferences and all the things and I love to see their work in public spaces. As a conservation consultant, I don’t have a tonne of opportunity to work with new work, although in the last few years, it’s come up twice, which is really exciting. And when I’m asked to be involved, I’m so thrilled because it is something a little bit outside of my norm. And to be able to facilitate that relationship between a prospective artist and a client. And I usually come on in the capacity of helping to make sure that the window will stand the test of time, right, I’m not of course, I’m not going to advise an artist on their own creativity or their design or anything like that. But I can provide some input of let’s make sure we can make this less for as long as we possible…we possibly can. So the future conservators have a shot at keeping it for as long as possible. So it’s really exciting to be able to work with artists in that capacity. And a lot of times their work is still reflective of their own personalities. So it’s great to get to know them and then see what they’re producing.

Vaissnavi Shukl

Insert rahul trailer

I’m going to go off track a little bit and while talking about stained glass, of course, as a medium, it’s probably evolved and it’s become maybe a little more exclusive to artists right now than to architecture but I’m also thinking about its strategic location within these buildings as elements of roof structure or predominantly of windows, right? I mean, I’m practising architecture myself right now. And I’ll admit that I don’t think about the kind of windows that often goes by default, you just want to put in, you know, your aluminium sections or upvc sections and ensure that it gives sunlight and air when it’s supposed to and blocks it when it’s supposed to. But what I often see right now, even… even with like the whole flood of new buildings emerging in different parts of the world, which end up looking more or less the same. There’s a certain sense, I don’t know if I would call it loss of beauty in windows, but it often seems like that particular element is neglected. Or maybe I’ll just confess to me neglecting window as an element while designing. But you don’t see it being as vibrant as colourful. And maybe that has to do with ornamentation, maybe I don’t know, maybe the definition or the perspective to us looking at stained glass has become more ornamental than functional. But what are your thoughts on the aspect of beauty in stained glass windows and where it stands now? I don’t know. Is there… is there a scope for revival if I if I can be a little provocative?

Brianne Van Vorst
So I think over in America, you know, over the last century or so, there has been high points and low points of stained glass and of course, you might think of the 1920s in the Tiffany window is in little forges and of course, you know, that was before before the 20s I guess, you know, a real high point of American stained glass and Yes, that’s true, but it’s had resurgences over the years. I mean, later In the night, in the 20th century, we saw a huge influx of people interested in stained glass in terms of as a hobby. Lot of hobbyists started making stained glass windows in the 1980s, and 1990s. And those found their way into… into their local parishes and their family homes and stuff like that, which is a very specific type of stained glass. And, you know, it’s, it’s a different thing than maybe a monumental window. But that’s a tough question. Because honestly, if I could predict the future, I don’t know. I don’t know if, yeah, I definitely have the lottery numbers. But I don’t know…

Vaissnavi Shukl
I want to say I don’t mean to put you on the spot, but I absolutely meant to put you on the spot. Cause no, it just… it just… Just think about it, right? It’s… it has much to do with the technique as well, because it’s not as simple as just, you know, taking a screen print and transferring it to the window. It’s…it’s much more than that, originally in the way it was done. And maybe I want to conveniently blame it on the emergence of all these facade systems and how all these high tech materials have taken the place of these windows. But I don’t know, I might end up doing something if I get the right opportunity. But it’s just, it’s, it’s interesting to think about it in that sense, you know, to wonder if I hate using the word dying art, but if you know, the meaning has transformed and changed so much over the time that it’s no longer relevant in the kind of buildings we build today. And I might be absolutely wrong. I might be ignorant.

Brianne Van Vorst
No, no, I actually, I actually appreciate you giving me a little bit more to go on. So I see what you’re saying a little bit more clearly now. And at a certain point, you know, here we had, you know, the Sears company, you could buy a kit house, right? You can order a house from a magazine, it would come in boxes, and you could build it yourself, right? Those came with stained glass windows, you know, regular houses, not high art…architecture houses, you know, typical middle class family houses included stained glass at one point in this country. Now, it’s a very small percentage of people who are actually getting after that, and commissioning stained glass to be put into their private homes these days, it does happen. But I think of course, our society has pivoted and placed emphasis on other things, value on other types of visual arts, stained glass sort of has this reputation of being a little bit mysterious, probably because there is not a lot of education surrounding it. And most people don’t know too much about it. But that mystery kind of elevates its coolness factor as well. There’s nobody… every time somebody asked me what I do for a living. And I say I work with stained glass, their immediate response is, “Oh, that is so cool. I love stained glass”. But as the conversation progresses, they know so little about it. And you know, I do my best at the cocktail party to try to tell people what they need to know. But there’s a limit to everyone’s attention span. But in terms of adding stained glass into our modern buildings, I think these days, we’re seeing it more as public art, which in past decades, it was public in terms of churches or places of worship. But now we are seeing in places like hospitals. And that is a… the resurgence I think of stained glass in the public art sector. And I think that, you know, we’ve been so immersed in technology for a while now, I think that the pendulum will swing the other way. And people will take a beat sort of like the arts and crafts movement after the industrial period. I think, you know, from what I’ve heard, interest in trade work and people getting education to work in actual building trades is on the up and up. And I hope very much I mean, I know the University of York programme is doing really well for conservation. I know people are out there going to art school, and I hope I’m confident that stained glass does not last forever. It’s too cool of a thing. Honestly, I think that there will always be a place for it. But education is really important because people need to understand that it is accessible, this can be done. It’s not the confusion surrounding it, especially in terms of its value and how expensive it is and it’s a specialised field, and can I afford to have one made and that people just don’t know. So I think with more education, which is something I’m…can’t stop saying over and over again, because I feel so strongly about it. It won’t only help conservators and people who work in studios be better professionals and clients understand what they’re buying when they do these conservation projects. But it will also help the craft in general. And I think contemporary artists really have so much pressure on them to sort of keep the craft around relevant. And they’re doing it with grace because some of these are installations that I’m seeing from modern or excuse me, contemporary stained glass artists are just so engaging, and that opens the door to have the conversation about why this craft is still important.
One final thought: you question whether stained glass is relevant in the kinds of buildings that We’re building today. And my previous responses have been from an artistic standpoint. But there’s really more to it than that. modern building code and consciousness of sustainability places an emphasis on thermal insulation of buildings, right? contemporary stained glass can work within these parameters. The weather seals of newly made stained glass windows are very good. But we can also use a secondary glazing layer called protective glazing, it is made of laminated glass that performs very well, there are considerations we don’t like to see unvented assemblies, because the interstitial space between the stained glass and the protective glazing can get very hot moisture could build up in there. So it really needs to have a vented airflow. However, as long as the process is approached mindfully, we can bridge the distance between a traditional building material and modern thermal needs.

Vaissnavi Shukl
I think you were right about the fact that it’s changed in the sense that it’s now public art, and it still has… has a place. But maybe it’s just the way we usually eat, it has changed or I don’t know, it’s exciting. At least glass as a medium is not going anywhere. So maybe when they run out of all techniques, and they’ve… they’re done inventing new, they’ll…they’ll go back to the basics. And hopefully that happens soon. But I think now is also a good time to talk about and you just mentioned you feel strongly about the lack of education and infrastructure in the stained glass industry? Could you tell us more about what you would consider an ideal direction for the future of this industry, especially in terms of work environments, or professional interaction? And if I was to push you a little bit more, can we also extend this conversation to similar micro industries and how these situate themselves in today’s world see, for example, textile preservation or furniture restoration?

Brianne Van Vorst
Sure. So I don’t, I am under the assumption and I can be incorrect. But I’m under the assumption that textile and furniture conservation falls under the larger heading of objects conservation, I believe that you would do an object’s conservation graduate programme to learn those things. Also, stained glass is somewhat included in those programmes as well. But it’s a very small, it’s specific to stained glass. It’s a, you know, a class part of a larger curriculum objects conservators have professional memberships, you know, there’s the American Institute of Conservation, there’s…there are museums that support that kind of work. So it’s a little bit more, in my opinion. And again, I could absolutely be wrong about this. But I view it…as them as those small niche conservators being part of the larger objects, conservation, platform, stained glass conservators, because we work in the wild in actual living, breathing buildings. For some reason, it’s almost like it’s taught, it’s considered to be more of a trade skill, rather than a conservation based academic pursuit of the object, if that makes sense. So in order to change that, or I mean, I don’t even know that it has to be changed. Because there’s nothing wrong with trade work versus academic work. In the end of the day, none of that really matters as long as everyone’s making good decisions. And those good decisions have to be guided by something. And formal education is the way to do that we really need a graduate programme here in the United States that focuses on stained glass conservation, not to discredit the University of York because I got an amazing education and I recommend it to everyone to go there if they can, but you know, it’s it’s far it’s it’s England, if you don’t want to leave America, or you can’t leave America, you don’t have an option. And it shouldn’t, it shouldn’t be that way. So we have apprenticeships, of course, in this country that are offered through stained glass studios, but you know, they’re taught in the vacuum of that firm’s specific objectives that does not replace the formal unbiased education. So I would really like to see a stained glass graduate programme really come into play at some point in the future. I mean, maybe also one, I don’t know. But I would like very much for people to have a real source of education. We also need continuing education for practitioners. There’s, we have, you know, we have a couple of guilds, that do conferences, and we have some small workshops and stuff, but it’s not like the AIA where you have to receive a certain amount of credits a year in order to stay licence, you know, there’s no, there’s nothing, there’s nothing motivating you to continue learning. Of course, one should want to do that on their own. But you know, people have lives and it sort of falls to the wayside. So continuing education, I think, is really important. And educational platforms also for clients. I mean, the people who are responsible for their buildings know so little about them on occasion that it’s really detrimental. So in order to, I would love the opportunity to be able to… be able to speak to buildings, stewards, architects, everyone and just say this, these are the fundamental parts of a stained glass window. This is how it ages. And these are your options for treatment. This is the death… you know the difference between restoration and conservation. And those are the basic things you need to know when you’re soliciting a bid from a contractor. And I just think that’s something that we’re really missing, I would love to have some form of accreditation for practitioners, because I believe objects conservators and paying concern other types of conservators do have accreditation, I believe, in this country, the stained glass community does not there is nothing judging you to any professional standard and saying, you can glaze a window and you can do it to a satisfactory level. You know, there’s nothing saying that you have the aptitude to understand real conservation and how it should be employed in the field, there’s nothing. So I know, it’s kind of a pipe dream but in some way to substantiate the skill levels of practitioners, some type of programme in order to do that would be really useful. And the last thing I would really like to see, which is slightly off topic, but there is not a central stained glass repository. So the Corning Museum of Glass has a lot of records, the Library of Congress has some records, you know, pertaining to stained glass, and there’s individual archives, and all different kinds of museums that have specific collections, maybe from a certain historic stained glass studio, or what have you, essential repository would be amazing. But moreover, I require a lot of documentation and all of my projects from the studios who work for me. I want to be very clear to the future conservators, because this isn’t the end of it, right? The idea is that we’re going to keep these things, our windows intact for and functioning for as long as we possibly can. So I want them to have the mind map in the future of what we did today. And 2021, the materials that we use, where they were employed, you know, I require marked up drawing, saying what materials were used where and all of all of the things, so the future people can make the best possible decisions. But that documentation ends up going to the client, you know, say the church, they retain it in their archives, if they can, or I keep it, that’s it. So the chances of, you know, something happening to it, if it’s just in a church basement for decades is high. So I would really like to see a place where those files could end up for future conservators to be able to visit and say, Oh, my building was this building that I’m working on today and 2070 was restored… conserved in 2021. And this is what they did. And that…that it would be a really beautiful thing for the future of stained glass.

Vaissnavi Shukl
I am so excited to see all the things that you have planned and that you are putting into the profession, I guess. It’s just very inspirational, because you genuinely want to do the best and you are so committed to the cause. And… and I mean, if at all you end up starting, and I hope you do the school or graduate programme and apprentice programme, please let me know and I’ll try my best to spread the word as… as well as I can’t. But on to my favourite question of every episode. What is next for you?

Brianne Van Vorst
Well, I would have to say either one of two things, global domination, or a Nobel Peace Prize, and nothing else.

Vaissnavi Shukl
You can do, boy, they’re not mutually exclusive. So I vote for both.

Brianne Van Vorst
No, in all seriousness, I have to say, I’m very honestly doing exactly what I’m supposed to be doing in life. I’m really grateful for that. And that being said, You know, I do recognise my own privilege, and that that has afforded me the ability to get where I am. I would like very much to participate or start, and this is still a concept in my mind, you know, the first time I’m saying it out loud is to you right now. But I would like very much to start something that would extend my knowledge to people who might not otherwise have access to it. I do not believe that preservation should be a privilege. And I hope to be able to make that happen in one way or another. I have like I said, I have a few loose ideas. But that is what’s next. I think, for me, I always hope to grow professionally. And personally, of course, the last few… few years I’ve really been wearing a lot of different hats because of although stained glasses. My real great first love preservation in general as a field is really attractive to me and I sort of have been doing a bunch of different things. I’m the chairperson of my local Preservation Commission. I help people with designation reports for their local landmarks. Like I’m just doing a lot of different parallel things. And I love that it’s definitely a lot of variety. So maybe one day I would expand my consulting firm for other historic materials as well, that’s kind of like a maybe… a long term goal. I’m not in a rush to do it. I’m very happy where I am. But it’s sort of on my mind in terms of the big what, what is next. And I really care strongly. And I really am trying to prioritise meeting more female colleagues both in stained glass and in the greater preservation and architecture fields. Right? It’s really important that we have each other and stick together because it’s an experience that it’s an experience.

Vaissnavi Shukl
It’s great, my guttural roar. Yes.

Brianne Van Vorst
Yes, the advice and friendship of women is really special and really important, and both personally and professionally. So I do try to prioritise that that’s actually how we came together from another female centred architecture blog by the name of Madame Architect. And I think it’s important that we continue this conversation and pay it forward to…to the next woman who’s trying to accomplish something great, and support her.

Vaissnavi Shukl
A 100 person and Madame Architect being a great resource and a great community, even just as somebody who consumes content, I think it’s just so well curated and every single person who’s being featured or was being interviewed, I think everybody’s work is fairly there. So he has… he has a genuine shout out to Madame architect. Well, Brianne, on that note, thank you so much for sharing your work, your insights and also your aspirations with us today. I can’t wait to see what you.. what you do. This is only the beginning.

Brianne Van Vorst
Thank you very much. It’s been a pleasure.

Vaissnavi Shukl
Special thanks to Ayushi Thakur for the research and design support, and Kahaan Shah for the background score. For guests and topic suggestions, you can get in touch with us through instagram or our website through our website archoffcentre.com, both of which are ‘archoffcentre’. And thank you for listening.